I first examined the KRISS Vector submachinegun at IWA in 2011. I did not understand why it needed to exist. I spent an evening at a Cuban cigar lounge in Nuremberg with some executives and tech guys from the company explaining my opinion to them. There was a former Swiss police officer who worked on the Sphinx pistol program (the companies are related) in attendance; he nodded as I spoke with a barely perceptible smile on his face. Essentially, I didn’t see why something as large and heavy as the Vector, even in short barrel format, needed to be in a pistol caliber. And if it was to be in a pistol caliber and marketed to US law enforcement, as the vice president of the company intended to do, then it should be in .40, not .45.
It took two years for me to get high speed video of the Vector, but I see nothing which changes my mind. I am not shown firing it on video, although I did shoot it numerous times. The two shooters in this video are physically strong, experienced in the use of firearms, and doing their best to keep the weapon on target.
The operating system is supposed to reduce muzzle climb through the reciprocating components moving down at an angle instead of back towards the shooter. It’s also claimed that the system will reduce recoil.
What I felt and observed is that the weapon jumps up and down in an arcing motion as the shooter fires it. If a strong shooter using good technique fires the weapon, the muzzle will stay close to being on target – but this is hardly a property unique to the Vector. The motion of the firearm is rather violent and causes the upper and lower halves of the Vector to briefly separate from one another and the variable power optic to flex. With +P ammunition, this motion was so violent as to cause the magazine to fall out of the weapon numerous times.
The cumulation of all this movement is a rather sharp shock delivered to the shooter, requiring a very brief pause before the sights or optic can be reacquired and the weapon fired again. In the end, it does not matter if the weapon comes up at an angle or makes a tiny rainbow motion – there is still a small period of time during which the shooter will be unable to put a round on target, and I am not convinced that the KRISS Vector reduces this time period by any margin.
I am happy to see a proper vetting of this weapon system I was infatuated with the KRISSwhen it came out until I saw the specs and real hands on accounts but none in this kind of quality.
I LOVE my Vector SBR. Chambered in BOTH .45ACP and 9mm. I have NONE of the problems you falsely describe. Get alife dude! LOL
Almost every man’s trash is one man’s treasure.
Yes. Well. There is no free lunch. The recoil energy has to go somewhere, and the summary of the vectors is 100% no matter what the gun designer does. Total recoil cannot be reduced; at best, the character of the felt recoil can be changed.
I cannot criticize the design for failure to perform magic and do the impossible, but the question of ‘was this trip really necessary’ is surely valid.
My question in your opinion is there still a need for SMG’s with the excellent SBR options and shotguns on the market today?
Yes, the problem with SBR’s in rifle caliber is over-penetration. This is especially important for room clearing and active shooter scenarios. A 5.56, even from a SBR will punch though the bad guy and through several walls unless it hits a stud, pipe or innocent bystander/team-member in another room. The .45 is naturally subsonic which is advantageous, and he very good at stopping at the first solid thing hit (hopefully said badguy) depositing all of it’s kinetic energy there.
Not disputing your results, but did you see any difference when shooting it unsuppressed?
High speed is awesome.
Whether the system operates as intended or not, I think the notion was to provide a weapon that would help enable a shooter of far less capability help to control a weapon he/she wasn’t able to practice on regularly ( see LEO budget constraints) and it’s a good idea. The same could be accomplished with an effective brake and productive training on handling.
Basically it’s a good idea and all, just didn’t deliver as promised.
On a side note, I live five minutes up the street from Kriss USA and have always wondered if they’d let me demo one under the guise of being a potential customer.
Also it doesn’t work.
my lay persons experience from shooting a Kriss in SBR format that was a rental item at a range was that held firm but probably losser than i ought to it stayed fairly level on full auto but it still kicked plenty but as others have said recoil has to go somewhere.
I work at a range where we had a Vector available for rent. At first I was pretty interested by the design and function of it, but our Vector was disappointing when it came to reliability or durability. We had a number of failure to extract issues, and quite a few quasi-stovepipe malfunctions where the ejected casing would not clear the ejection port in time and get in the way of the returning bolt. Despite meticulous cleaning and inspection, the Vector would fail to sit fully into battery a number of times, leading to several KBs.
The Vector also chewed up our Glock 21 magazines so that none of them would lock the action open on the final shot. After about 6 months of putting up with this, we decided to get rid of it. I’m with Andrew on questioning the need or the purpose of a gun like this.
“I work at a range where we had a Vector available for rent. ”
“the Vector would fail to sit fully into battery a number of times, leading to several KBs.”
“After about 6 months of putting up with this, we decided to get rid of it. ”
So you continued to put up with and rent a gun to customers which exhibited out of battery detonations? Remind me you never visit your range. In fact, what’s the name? I’d like to give your state police a call …
LOL. Did you ever call the police on them because they happened to own a well known jam-o-magic gun that they got rid of? You sound like those retards that call the cops because they don’t have chicken McNuggets during breakfast hours. What a loser haha, go shoot your dick off Apendix carrying like all your Instagram trainers you retard.
Enlightening
Well… at least we have another over-engineered exotic to sit next to likes of the SPAS12 in our video games.
“Hey! We took this gun with low muzzle rise and decent controlability and jacked the ROF up to 1200 rpm to make it less controllable. Also it’s ergonomic as a boot box, poorly built and expensive! Hahahaha NO, it’s only a pistol caliber, neat huh?”
There is room in the world for a well made .45 cal SMG that is more controllable than the other options. Having once used both a kriss vector and HK UMP .45 (both civilian models), i can say that the kriss is all around more controllable when firing the same loads. The recoil impuls almost felt directed down rather than straight back and i could double tap targets with better accuracy. You should do a direct comparison to other models of SMGs chambered in the .45 cartridge befor making a conclusion. That is, unless you feel that .45 cal SMGs are stupid.
I have also used the UMP. It is lighter than the Vector. Direct comparisons would need to take that into account.
Also, I’ve never seen mags fall out of a UMP during a course of fire.
1+, UMP is a better option. I can add weight to most weapons and felt recoil will be less….not something most of us want to do to manage recoil. I like .45 for suppressed sub guns, but keep in mind, it is a replacement for a pistol primary type mission, not a carbine. For some reason people think a stock and a high cap magazine makes it a rifle…..it is still a pistol that is easier to shoot.
The UMP is my favorite of any gun I own. The gun really doesn’t have much recoil, just the 2lb bolt torques the weapon clockwise when you shoot it.
You can’t fool physics, but some people can fool themselves, or others.
Amen. We need some physicists as either consultants or full-time employees at the firearm manufacturers.
Stupid law of conservation of energy, it’s totally got it in for the Kriss Vector.
You can’t just make the recoil energy disappear. It has to go somewhere.
I have been scratching my head ever since this gun came out, WHY .45? More to the point- who even uses SMGs anymore in any real quantity who is not simply stuck with them because of budgetary issues? I don’t even.
I think there are police applications for subguns….
Kinda, but honestly they can use short-barreled M16-derivative guns and get most of the same benefits. Doing so also has the benefit of magazine/ammo compatibility with other police rifles, and the built-in training that comes with a familiar platform. Every cop that’s a military veteran already knows the platform well, but may have a steep learning curve with any common SMG.
If the situation calls for a weapon with an 8″ barrel or less (sweeping a house, close quarters) I want to be using 45acp over a rifle round anyday. Don’t need the ballistics of the rifle round and the 45 puts the bigger hole in the bad guy.
I would admit that I was a fan of the Kriss pistol because of the looks. Having never fired it and reading your review, it looks a lot less attractive for the cost ($2K).
A Glock18c would be more efficient and lightweight. An SBR AR15 would be even more effective either in 5.56 or 300Blackout.
Boss, at the risk of going OT, did you get my e-mail?
Quick little physics primer.
Recoil, felt recoil, effective recoil are all imprecise terms that don’t have a lot of physical meaning. Let’s replace them with terms found in classical mechanics: momentum, impulse, and force.
When a bullet flies out of a gun, it has momentum (mass * velocity). The momentum of any total system is conserved. So the gun has a momentum shift in the opposite direction, from exactly the same point. This cannot be changed, no matter sort of magic you put in there. Not only can you not redirect the direction of the recoil momentum, you cannot relocate the position of the recoil momentum. In other words, you cannot make a high-bore weapon shoot like a low-bore weapon. Also, simulated training firearms with reciprocating masses can never provide a recoil like a gun, because no bullet leaves the barrel. They simply rock back-and-forth.
Although the momentum is conserved, the way that momentum is felt can be manipulated. This is known as the impulse, the integral of the force over time. If you’re jumping down from a 10-ft ledge, you want to bend your knees to absorb the impact. This spreads out the impulse over a longer period of time, so that the instantaneous force felt at any given moment is reduced. This is why it is often claimed that semi-auto pistols shoot “softer” than revolvers, because the slide helps distribute the recoil impulse. Any gun or stock or butt-pad that claims to reduce recoil is simply smoothing-out the recoil impulse.
Now to the Kriss. I can believe that it is easier to shoot, but only because the barrel of the weapon is lower, right behind the shooting hand. The gun flexes because the recoil of the barrel goes straight-back, but the support of the stock is above it. This causes the gun to flex downwards, than snap back up as the polymer stock regains its original shape. The moving weights inside the gun may manage to smooth out the recoil impulse, but they will not redirect or reduce the overall recoil.
At the risk of sounding too aggressive, KRISS and Sphinx can go shove their guns up their sphinxters, the stunt they pulled with their mean little tracking scheme killed the brand for me. despite being Swiss myself, any company that goes to it’s government and pitches their own litte gadget to them, knowing full well that registration/confiscation would be made much easier cannot be a shooter’s friend. and the friend of my enemy is my enemy, too…
My problem is that it’s an answer to a question nobody is asking. Who wants a .45acp sub gun in the first place? If you want a controllable .45 sub gun then I would say look at M3 grease gun. Maybe it’s just me but I have yet to find a .45 that can be handled like a M3. Again, maybe it’s just me, but it was controllable, accurate enough and they have a slow enough rate of fire to actually be useful for longer than a half second. But anyways, is this just me or has anyone else thought this? Heck, im that one guy at the MG shoots that actually likes the M3 over the Thompson or all the new fangled guns. Sure it could use a better charging handle, grip, magazine design, stock, trigger and sights but they just shoot pretty damn good for me…. Anyways, just my $.02.
All this is interesting and distressing information since I am in the midst
of buying a Kriss pistol at this time. But I must point out that the Glock
21 magazine is used in the Kriss and it is likely that it has not been as closely
designed for such forces, which are always present in firearms, specifically in
the Kriss. This is the sort of thing that should get back as feed back to Kriss
engineers who can work on getting a better fix to secure the mag during such
recoil shocks. Or maybe have a dedicated magazine specifically for the Kriss.
Obvious.
Yeah! 😉
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/06/nicest-horse-and-buggy-ive-ever-seen.html
Very enlightening, yes. Thanks so much for the honest review. Plus, the slow-mo was revealing. After seeing that scope wobble, I’m also a little worried that optics aren’t designed for that kind of up-down impulse.
If you could, would you mind comparing this to a Grease Gun? I have a feeling that a nice, slow rate of fire and a “springy” wire stock might to just as well (if not better) at getting those .45s on target (without any gimmicks).
I remember a Military Channel special where they rated CQB weapons.
The show placed the Kriss in first place over the likes of the Uzi, MP5, P90, & MP7.
In other words – LOL!
There is no subgun but the holy PPsh, hallowed be it’s name..
An honest critique…nicely done, Andrew.
If you want a controllable sub gun, try a .30 Carbine. I would really like to market broomhandle mausers in .30 Carbine.
Andrew, please do a high speed video of the Tavor and please don’t wait so long after it has hit the market. You could save us a lot of money or we could be buy ’em up like crazy.
Huh. I, too, always wondered what it was for . . . but I never questioned that it was an awesome, elegant technical solution. Watching the whole thing flex and jive in the high-speed video makes me question that, too.
Huh.
Well, no big deal in my life; I still don’t really get what it’s for in a world of carbine-madness, except that subguns are fun to play with.
I just picked up the Kriss pistol and love it. Fun, accurate and no jams after 500 rounds. Could play all day at thr range, much more comfortable for long sessions than my G22. A friend has the rifle so I have played with both. The rifle is nice but I prefer no stock. I would recommend renting one if you are on the fence you will love it.
Importantly most of the comments were made by people that don’t even own a vector…. so being able to know that thy weapon is impossible for these people…. I own one and I was disappointed… Until I became one with it… The Vector has to be broken… About 600 rounds…. At least it took me that long to figure out the proper lubrication… The Vector needs very little Lubrication only about two little dots is all it requires…. My vector runs like a champ unbelievable firepower specially females can handle it very well… 2 L bottles @ 150 yards is no problem… My neighbors wife shot my Vector she had never fired a gun and she never missed the 5 gallon bucket at 50 yards..she fired 30 around.
So I am convinced these people were over lubricating it.. And they didn’t take time to learn the weapon! Like I said over lubrication and the gun doesn’t function as well. Less lubrication means less drunk building up! PS it’s a lie about the bolt going downward it does not it’s a very short stroke and it go straight back pressing the spring downward not the bolt.
Thank you. I recently bought a vector and was disappointed with performance. However because of how the action works I figured the more lube the better and soaked everything. Im going to clean it off and use the recommended 2-3 drops next time and hope for the best!
I like to see him slow motion other guns as well, but he didn’t. He also didn’t offer any other firearms to compete with the Kriss, that he thinks is better. Find me a gun that can have extremely low recoil with such a fast follow up shots as he didn’t offer one. What, the Uzi, Thompson machine gun, Beretta CX4??? What a joke. Those are the guns in the same class as the Kriss Vector, so lets see him give a detail observation on all the pros & cons of each gun, such as ergonomics, magazine capacity, quick breakdown as the Kriss needs no tools for that. Also, full picatinny top rail, a threaded barrel from the factory for suppressors, folding butt stock for easy storage which is adjustable, a hole in the top for a pressure mount light, & most importantly a low recoil fast follow up shooting gun that even females Cops can shoot. Also lets see him show other guns in slow motion follow up shots like guns in the same class as the Kriss (Thompson machine gun, Uzi, or Beretta CX4, I own one of those also). By the way, my magazines don’t fall out nor did they fall out in other video’s I have watched. Seems like a very bias review by a disgruntle Swiss Cop who hates the idea of a pistol round in a short barrel rifle for work. I guess he would like a full auto AK-47, only problem is collateral damage as the round will go through house after house or straight through one target & then bystanders. He utterly failed to change my mind.
Jack. The question is not as much whether or not this firearm is better than Uzi, Tommy or CX4; it is why you would choose to use such a firearms at all in today’s market? Women can shoot M4 carbines without any problems, so why settle for a pistol round if you need something with more umph than the regular sidearm? The only real bias displayed in this thread is owners bias.
The KRISS Vector is a novelty gun that looks cool in movies. If you can own a class 3 firearm there is absolutely no reason to go with a KRISS as there are many better options (and even then I would say that you will find that a semi-automatic M4 carbine is more useful than a full-auto KRISS.)
Oh, and FYI, police are not relegated to using over-penetrating FMJ ammo…
Soren, Simple question for you. Would you like the police to use an M4 or a .45 Kriss vector when raiding your neighbors house? If that is the only alternative now mention, they are completely two different guns & there is no comparison. The M4/ 5.56 round will blow through your neighbors house along with your house. Hope you enjoy collateral damage. Worst case is Police using M4s for high urban populated area or an apartment complex defending themselves with M4s & massive collateral damage or a SWAT team going in & getting a target again with 5.56 non expanding rounds flying through wall after wall & the round being able to travel for miles. The .45 hollow point will go through a wall but not have much left after that as it expands & is 2000fps slower than the 5.56. FYI, Police don’t use fmj ammo, they use hollow points here in America. Police stopped using fmj ammo in the 1960s. I have no idea where you get your info from, but it is dead wrong. Now, why did the Police stop using fmj ammo? Simple, collateral damage. That is why every agency I know runs hollow points as they expand into a target, not blow right through it & into another person. Only people that use fmj ammo still is the Military, & why, because of the Geneva convention, otherwise they would use hollow points.
Do you play golf? The Kriss is like a golf club. It is designed for a special purpose. It is for high populated, urban firearm with strong punching power at short distances (0-50 yards) with minimum collateral damage. If I live on a farm, yes I like the M4 option better & I would agree with you. If I live in a high urban, populated area, the Kriss is my choice. Just like a golf club, if you are driving the ball only 25 yards you don’t use a golf club that is designed to drive the ball 300 yards do you?
Now that we are talking about guns that are designed for high urban style combat when collateral damage has to be taken into account, the Uzi, Tommy or the CX4 fall in the same class as a Kriss Vector. Those are the guns I would like to see a detailed comparison too. I like the CX4, but my Kriss better for multiple reasons, & yes I own several ARs & a Kriss so their is no bias here. Guns are like tools, you need the right tool for the right job. You don’t use a screw driver when you need a hammer. That sir is why I choose to own a Kriss when the job calls for it, & when the job calls for a pistol, AR, AK-47, .308 sniper, I own those also. Guns are like potato chips you can’t stop with just one. Like tools also, you need the right tool for the right job. Sadly, my original post & comments back to you are more detailed then the article is. No bias here, just an educated buyer and an enthusiast.
It is a simple fact that 5.56 penetrates less through drywall and other housing materials than .45 or other pistol bullets. Arguing anything to the contrary is ignorant of the physical reality of terminal ballistics and barrier penetration.
How big does a .45 acp 230 grain hollow point expand on contact? Usually .680″ to .900″ thousand of an inch. How fast does a .45acp 230gr bullet travel? Answer is 800 to 900fps. Now, a 5.56 round does not expand upon impact. It travels 2800-3300fps (depends on barrel length & grain of 5.56 & twist rate). Round size on a 5.56 is approximately .210-235″ thousands of an inch which is traveling 3x faster than a .45 at roughly .750″ average size. So the .45 is going to contact more surface area (average outside wall of a home- drywall, insulation, 3/8 plywood & siding) upon contact at a much slower speed. It will slow down much faster. Matter of fact a 5.56 will go through drywall and a stud, where as a .380, .38, 9mm, .40, or a .45 will go through drywall, but not drywall & a stud. Still not convinced Andrew? Eat your heart out, here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQCUsuXl-qg
Fast forward to about 5 minutes into the video. I wish you lived close by so we could bet money, because I would have just took it from you.
JHP pistol bullets generally do not expand simply by passing through drywall. Most require hydraulic pressure on the hollow point to do so. So they just keep on charging through such barriers until they run out of steam.
5.56 projectiles yaw and/or fragment when they pass through multiple layers of drywall.
I have tested this myself, I did not learn it from a YouTube video. The 5.56 projectiles penetrated fewer sheets of 3/8″ drywall than any pistol JHP bullet or shotgun slug/buckshot pellet. This is why so many SWAT teams have switched away from pistol caliber carbines. In fact, overpenetration is why the FBI recommends 5.56 carbines for this purpose.
Your knowledge of this topic is severely lacking. Stop digging this hole even deeper.
Sorry but 5.56 fmj will punch through a steel pot and FMJ .45 will bounce, dent.
Absolutely. Is your house made of steel pots?
Jack, Andrew touched on all the points for my reasoning. Also, I do not understand which of the information I provided that you feel was dead wrong? Maybe you should look up “relegated” in the dictionary?
Gentlemen (and I use that term VERY loosely :>):
I own the Kriss Vector CRB…and I love it. Now, I am by no means an expert…I have not fired the SBR or SMG versions of the Kriss nor have I fired the UMP, Uzi, Thompson, nor any other sub-machine gun. However, when it comes to making claims of being an expert at something and levying claims of poor product quality (i.e. “Iâve never seen mags fall out of a UMP during a course of fire….”, maybe you should read the instruction manual which clearly recommends the ammunition that is compatible with this firearm…+P ammunition NOT being one of them. I’m pretty certain that any weapon would malfunction if you don’t follow the directions for use. Nice job indeed! You may now resume your ranting, raving, and dressing up like a pseudo-terrorist? C’mon…grow up. LOL!
The Kriss is the answer to a question no one has asked in past 50+ years. It’s an expensive toy and as such, the fact it doesn’t perform under anything close to field conditions, isn’t that big a deal. Enjoy your toy and don’t let the mean mans words bother you.
Also, the UMP is also a shit box and I have seem mags fall out
Ok, so HEAVIER, no follow thru on diminished “FELT RECOIL”, a HEFTY PRICE TAG and the OPTION to SHOULDER a pistol caliber that is supposedly THE ANSWER to a supposed lack of SUCH A WEAPON that needed to be engineered?!?
While we may all agree, that energy can NOT BE DIMINISHED, WE DO KNOW that comfort CAN be achieved. While using the tricks that allow us to BELIEVE we are FEELING more in control of something exploding in our hands, as we try to achieve accuracy with all we have built into such an event, many have already done so and we enjoy those which employ them best. BUT, has THIS ONE DONE MORE than the others who have done it with, less a price and don’t claim anything NEW OR IMPROVED (you cant have both or IT ISN’T NEW and IMPROVED)? IF SO, let it resonate thru the hands and ears of ALL…and we CAN AGREE, IT DOES NOT!
Arguing things, like possibility of collateral damage, minimizing or possibly damaging effective optics, magazine serviceability and TOOLS or no tools to take down, and mag serviceability or employment are all factors that we PERSONALLY feel are problematic to any weapon…BUT, we have seen answers to all of those in the form of #1) rounds, YES EVEN FOR OUR AR platforms, that are safe amongst the populace, and should it ever come to THAT concern, each OP should be considered and have an PLAN in place to MINIMIZE that potenial tragedy (I say minimize because as a rifleman, military member, competitive shooter, trainer, builder/assembler and OVERALL weapon user and HELLMAN, YOU CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY ALL POSSIBILITIES for achieved victims where you can not control chaos). Simply consider the range where the young boy was killed from a round that traveled BACK, through the building, ricocheted off the structure and managed a direct head shot. Those places are made to MINIMIZE rounds from coming off target after impact and THINGS STILL HAPPEN, accidentally or not. SO, lets NOT think we can take away a critical situation from unrelateds, because casualties are achieved in the most ELITE of engagements. #2) Optics are available for use on weapons such as 50 BMG and real ASSAULT rifles (not the congressional equivelant that really is NOTHING like the force we see in our military styled rifles). #3) Tools to take down or maintenance kits should be readily available, whether we are walking across the street to the range or if we are deploying half way around the globe to follow orders, so THAT is something that may be easier, but, you should still have basics with you at any time! #4) MAGS are SO resistant these days, I am SURE a better one is AVAILABLE, is BEING engineered or will be replaced or provided at little or no cost until the problem is potentially alleviated or the weapon phases itself out…BUT, again, the question still remains SHOULD WE HAVE TO BE CONCERNED with any of this since many options ARE ALREADY HERE that do not need sufficient planning, simply to go use !?!
With ALL weapons, we must manage the force that comes with the activation of a supersonic event that occurs in a confined space. Add multi shot or full auto capability, and even the smallest caliber can get unruly! SO, if a claim to fame is going to be a difference in response to THAT event, YOU BETTER BE READY TO DELIVER SOMETHING THAT FEELS LIKE MAGIC, otherwise, let it be assumed that the user is GOING TO have to manage what WILL occur! I DO believe that those of us who understand the train of what occurs, accept the potential and those who do not, end up on YOUTUBE…and at times need stitches, band aids and a little powder for mommy to rub on their bottom (hopefully not more, even though it is well documented that many have been killed when their own weapons literally became uncontrolled and they met their own demise during the process tragic and unfortunate, no matter how proficient or knowledgable…and welcomed if a crime was being committed and undoubtedly the weapon was stolen and the user assumed the TV shows were true in one handing an automatic weapon). I personally love a couple S&W .500s, and other large caliber weapons and dont think the FEELING is anywhere like some of the days of old on a Ruger 686 or SUPERBLACKHAWK. Again, supposedly redirected or not, the power is the same, but some ARE MORE COMFORTABLE. SO, again, you may not CHANGE THE ACTUAL EVENT, but, if it doesnt FEEL different to a manner that is CLEARLY visible, do not attempt to lay claim to your engineering as doing so…IT WILL BE OBVIOUS ONCE THE USERS PULL THAT TRIGGER and then you have suffered in your credibility and it will affect how people view your company! Maybe it wont matter, because you are that crass and some simply flip their nose and maintain an elitest standard, yet still have a following…JUST BE READY and accepting of the outcome.
NOW, WHAT IS THIS, IN PARTICULAR, DOING BETTER OR DIFFERENTLY to what is already employed, and proven down range?! MOREOVER, is THIS weapon necessary to a niche that was unfillable or was the perception of a non existent option with what we already have? Since claims are that a weapon like it, both in operation and ability as an overall answer to nothing ELSE out there being as capable in THAT class, lets REALLY consider some of THAT and how true it is. First, there have been SMGs for a looooooong time, so, check one to the con side since HK, Cobray and MANY OTHERS addressed that historically. YOU COULD LITERALLY ISSUE CAA RONI TO EVERYONE that feels a shoulder fired pistol caliber is necessary, AND SAVE A TON OF MONEY over THIS option…and have MANY a PROVEN product used with little or no adaptive strategies to a team, force or even good ole JOHN DOE (who makes up a HUGE part of the market, whether we agree they should OR NOT!) because many of the folks are already carrying sidearms of their choice that are proficiently THEIR BEST OPTION. And the ACTUAL operation is NOT brand new and those of us who know historically about similar engineering, know this, so that IS NOT completely true either, be it subtle changes or not.
With much of that being granted and UNDERSTOOD, before it should have to pointed out, consider the options! IF THIS COMPANY simply stands behind the fact that THEY want to make a DAMN SEXY weapon, with multi capable employment abilities, THEN SIMPLY state that! “Hey, sexy gun, plus cool factor, will look AWESOME on the next video game, works pretty damn well and has a PROVEN KNOCKDOWN CALIBER with high mortal potential, all while being able to engage in minimized or distance restricted application, WE HAVE A DOOZY OF A CHOICE FOR YOU!” And, if you DONT believe that would sell this gun, YOU GIVE THE GENERAL PUBLIC NO CREDIT for buying on MANY OF THOSE VERY POINTS THAT DO SELL GUNS DAILY! I can assure you, with all of our military or strategic vernacular, people HEAR blah blah blah, RAIL MOUNTED ACCESSORIES, blah blah blah, THREADED BARREL, blah blah blah, HIGH CAPACITY! LOAD up this thing with all the bolt ons, Smack a pair of Oakleys or a Fast Helmet on a NERD WITH NO GUN EXPERIENCE, throw them in a place that looks gritty or industrial, maybe some cool camo or rig behind this weapon and YOU HAVE YOUR SELLING POTENTIAL FILLED! By the time flaws and failures catch up (especially at prices similar to the KRISS) if there are any, and the VERSION OR MOD number updates will be able to be addressed and worked out. SAD BUT TRUE! You know how many people reach for Hi Point rifles with things bolted on the rails and a $250 price tag on them? I am by NO MEANS comparing the two, I am simply stating a fact that perception sells these things and before MANY of the good ones, get figured out, WE HAVE GEARED THEM UP to meet OUR OWN NEEDS, be them reliable or not. HENCE 24″ wheels on a 80s caprice!
We can ONLY hope that honest, UN biased as possible, people will share their experiences with those who REALLY ARE looking for a reliable weapon that will meet MANY (NOTHING WILL DO IT ALL, there are simply too many factors) of the objectives which are necessary to that weapon of choice. Be it, grab from out of your under bed safe and know you can count on it for the safety of everyone in your home, or pack into your kit and deploy successfully at a moments notice, and know that it is what you will need when the mission occurs.
NO ONE IS GOING TO TELL YOU THEY FART IN THEIR SLEEP! So, DONT expect everything to stand up to what the CLAIMS are! Some can and very well, DO! If all did fully do as intended or advertised, it would certainly mean the death of the phrase, BUYER BEWARE! All in all, it MAY meet your expectations, it may live up to why you shelled out the money for it, it may look AWESOME mounted to your gear and woo all those who see you walk out to the range…but, PLEASE don’t be upset if people do compare it to other options and point out faults, subjective or objective, because ONCE YOU RELEASE IT TO THE PUBLIC, it WILL have to stand up to the scrutiny of ALL. EVEN if it were meant for the use or employment of a few or specific group.
I fart in my sleep
I quit farting when I got rid of the Kriss Vector piece of junk.
Go home Steven Neal, you’re drunk.
Uhhh, wow. I may have let a fart slip while reading that
Thanks for continuing to be an objective voice in the firearms industry, instead of hyping up everything that hits the market, as some do.
SOMETIMES I’m not SURE if I emphasize THE right wOrDs. occasIONALLY my responses LACK continuity and ORGANIZED THOUGHT. This makes IT seem like I HAVE Tourette’s SYNDROME. When you MAKE a gun like A sandwich, that is why the bus stop was better in Albuquerque than a rutabaga inside a WAFFLE box.
In conclusion, THE BILL of rights was written by HAMSTERS. TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT^115th power.
I do believe we may have found Gecko45.
No, Trevor (the guy who did all the Gecko45 stuff) would have been funnier.
sure it wasn’t his buddy, specops?
Good point…but then again…how would you know? Anyone know who he really is, or what mall he has sworn to protect? lol
I just purchased the CRB. I will report after 500 1000 and 2000 rounds.
Kriss is a cool tool for a certain job! BUT it has not shown to be battle tested and proven in my book to own one! Every weapon I own are all battle proven weapons period!
It takes time for weapons to be battle tested. Give it some time and see what happens. I am not taking either side, due to my lack of experience with it. However, you do have the choice not to buy…
Every gun kicks – some more than others… Use shitty ammo and any gun jams, ah hello. My Kriss CBR kicks a bit to the right with the barrel spin, otherwise I’ve never smiled as much shooting a .45 rifle from 0-100 yards. Keep it cleaned, well oiled, and buy a high serial number so it has kinks worked out. Did the AR work good from the begining? Not…..
I too had a Kriss Vector .45 acp. Piece of junk and waste of money. Bought a Kimber .45 and more fun to shoot as well as my AR15. Anybody wtb 4 Glock 21 mags (30 rnd) that fits Kriss, email me.
I think that innovation always sees the kinds of complaints and logical fallacies.
While it may not be the apex of of the ideal that was invisioned of what it could be. The simple matter of innovating to innovate has brought upon mankind, great things. Unix was working great as the business computer until the late 80’s. Until a worm infected the computers.
Instead of just coming up with a anti virus and fixing it. DoS and windows took over with windowns of course becoming the winner.
Innovation for innovations sake leads to many dead ends. However, it may eventually unblock another innovators personal road block and demolish the dead end that once existed.
The PPsH was a solution to an existing problem. The SKS was innovation that was a step behind where it needed to be. As the AK47 was the answer the Russians were looking for. However it was too innovative and needed fine tuning. I don’t see this as any different.
A lot of mind bringing physics into the argument here about dissipation of force. Newtons laws are the laws of physics as we understand them. Sure. X round produces y force.
Why then can’t a significant counter balance mitigate y force through the same principle? Not mind you. Do away with it. But displace it? Force meeting an equal and opposite force.
Problem.
Recoil.
Answer. Spring, blow back or gas systems. Select individuals may also use addition gas tools to reduce “kick” such as a “silencer” and these tools work in a linearn manner. Less force out the barrel, less force to the shoulder. Or springs of a certain weight used to slow and dissipate force to a certain degree. Often used in conjunction with other tools.
Imagine then using using 5 or 6 springs on a heavy star shapped bolt. The springs would be weighed for blance. The six springs would dampen the inertia of a single round for sake of argument, based on spring and buffer weight.
It would take x amount of pressure to move y springs and buffers backwards. Too much and they are too heavy or result in missfeeds and malfunctions. Too light and the recoil is not sufficiently reduced.
Now on automatic weapons even as small as a 5.56 can produce enough recoil through sustained fire to throw a person off target. A heavier spring, compensator/supressor(silencer) can help to mitigate the recoil. However the base design will always be the base design of an AR-15. You wouldn’t as an educated gun enthusiast call an AK47/74 an AR15.
Now this isn’t to say the Kriss is not without it’s problems. However the idea behind it could be a boon to others looking at mitigating heavy kick or the high recoil of a sustained burst of a SMG or other shoulder fired weapon.
And all this to say I think you are being a little harsh on the KRiss for what it is and the actual innovation that it represents.
Not that you are flat out wrong or I disaree whole heartedly with your synopsis of the design features. However. The Weapon does fire. The weapon does show in several other test vidios that it does accomplish its stated goals.
Strong shooting men shooting a completely alien weapon cannot be expected to perform at expert level.
Why in .40 cal? Have you even seen videos of a normal pistol which climbs 35 degrees upward when fired? The KRISS is near 0! “What I felt and observed”, tell us how many degrees did you observe??? The whole article sucks bigtime. No comparisions, no other info, just your uneducated opinion.
On the contrary, I am highly educated.
I agree with Troy.
Yep. I bought one anyway and I am extremely pleased with it.
Could have done without the price but c’est la vie. There is
no felt recoil so far that I have been able to detect and with
a laser attached this pistol/rifle is extremely deadly accurate.
You DO have to keep it clean though! It is tight enough that powder
residue can cause problems like stove piping as in any firearm.
My Kahr 45 autos which I carry have the same problem-but some
people take them back saying they don’t work when all they need
is a good cleaning. Have run into this problem twice and may
account for malfunctions in the Kriss. Haven’t had a single
malfunction yet though and I have fired a lot of rounds thru
my pistol–all dead on using the laser.
You got a bad magazine and or there was an imperfection in the magazine catch, The one you fired was defective and there for sucked the pins were too weak and the receivers split.
After getting my hands on one, I too was not impressed. Not only was the recoil system rubbish and completely useless, but the ergonomics were atrocious. The safety switch requires the shooter to move his hand out of the comfortable position and use either the thumb or index finger. The magazine release also requires a huge re positioning of the shooters front hand in order to press it with the thumb. Finally, the incredibly stupid placement of the fire selector – IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING RECEIVER? I mean, what idiot decided that? The safety and mag release aren’t that bad, but now I have to either move my front hand or trigger hand out of their positions in order to change fire modes? Why isn’t the safety on the selector switch too? Why would you need two separate fire selectors? Whoever designed this gun must have had a third arm or freakishly long fingers. Finally, the lack of ambidexterity on all of the selectors and buttons bothered me too. Overall, I was not impressed with this firearm (which is essentially a pistol with a fancy stock). It is very poorly designed. Whoever did design it decided to make it look cool as opposed to functional. Basically, one of the most uncomfortable firearms anyone could shoot with.
You must have small hands because none of what you mentioned
is a problem for me. But then again aren’t all guns like that?
Some fit one guy’s hand better than another’s. I wouldn’t classify
my fingers as freakishly long, but yes they are long and the Kriss
shoots better and faster than my semi-auto mac 11 and I really
like the mac 11.
First of all, as a matter of full disclosure, I am former military, but not an expert marksman. I am, however, a pretty good marksman. I’ve shot the Kris’s Vector before and personally I found it easier to shoot than my .45 ACP & .40 S&W pistols. It also had a lot less recoil. So if the debate is over .45 cal. pistol vs the KV, then I’d say that the KV wins hands down. I’ve shot it using ACOG, reflex and no optics. I found it easier to get accurate follow up shots than my pistols, because of the added weight. To be fair, I do prefer shooting rifle platforms to pistols. Personally, I think it’s a cool hybrid, but I do not own one. I like the feel of the P90 over the KV, but there’s no comparison when it comes to the cost of ammo.
My issue with the article is the stating:
“The motion of the firearm is rather violent and causes the upper and lower halves of the Vector to briefly separate from one another and the variable power optic to flex.”
While everything flexes, if just a millionth of an inch, this is not what is seen in the video. The video does not show a seperation of the upper & lower. What it does show is VIDEO ARTIFACT.
1. The video artifacts happen when something is small and registers as an entire pixel when it is smaller than a pixel, this makes the shadow line of between the upper and lower look larger when it covers 2 vertical pixels, and smaller when it covers 1 pixel and 1/2 of the pixel above it, and 1/2 of the pixel below it, making it look like it gets bigger and smaller as it moves up and down.
2. When the object is moving faster than the camera frame rate, often 30frames per second things blur, and can look larger than they actually are.
3. When the direction of movement corresponds to the direction of the cameras pixel read out (the pixel data stream out of the sensor row by row, so if something was moving fast enough, it could appear in every row of a single frame, like a stripe in the vertical direction. ) This makes the shadow line between the upper and lower look larger going up, and smaller going down (or vice versa based on the camera read out direction).
These are all Artifacts that go along with video capture. We don’t always worry about them because we are watching video for entertainment, but when we are making measurements based on the video, the consequences of the artifacts really start showing up in spades.
I’m only commenting on the errors that were claimed to be based on the video.
The video is 1000 frames per second, not 30. And it’s not a “video artifact” if it happens every time the weapon is fired.
With the entire magazine/hammer/bolt carrier group/trigger linkage etc. (all the heaviest metal components ) being in front of the trigger, the Kriss Super V will never be a success as it is too front heavy.
Throw in the scopes, tactical flashlights, lasers… It is such a completely 2 handed weapon as a result of this lop-sided lack of balance. It is far worse than a normal rifle. This makes it difficult to hold in the firing position for too long before the arms tire and the sight picture starts wavering. No military will ever award a contract to this current design.
Imagine if the forehand grip is the trigger instead. All that unnecessary length comprising the buttstock would be removed. This would make it a bullpup with the perfect balance. Much shorter/compact and fitted with a potentially much longer barrel, it could potentially make for the perfect bullpup assault rifle.
My KRISS GEN2 Rocks plenty of: beauty , reliability , accuracy. Beat out M1, M2 in 2 round burst competition. Feels awesome in SRB platform, lots of reviewers dig shooting it as well.
I owned a CRB Gen II 9mm for about 6 months. It ran great, was fun to shoot and turned plenty of heads. Ultimatetely, the honeymoon phase ended and it sat in the safe until I eventually sold it. Positives, I did like that it used Glock mags and I thought their collaboration with Magpul was neat (which I had hoped would expand). Negatives, the ergos left much to be desired and the safety lacked convincing positivity (borderline unsafe in my opinion). The Kriss is a great range toy but if you’re looking for a gun to do actual work with there are so many better options.
You’re an idiot.
Of course the optic is flexing. Why the hell would you use that scope on a .45 MSG designed for short-range engagements? Why not film it using iron sights or a reflex sight?
It wasn’t my weapon – that’s how the PD issued it. But to answer your question more directly, it’s the size and weight of a rifle, why should it have the range of a pistol? Unlike other SMGs that are actually lighter than rifles…
I’m not a big gun expert but I do enjoy watching and studying videos on different types of guns and how they work. I love the look of the vector and but also wanted to see if it lived up to its hype or claim of low recoil and muzzle climb. Now of course every gun is gonna have some type of recoil, some greater and more noticeable than others. I would suggest anyone who is interested and concerned with recoil as a big factor in choosing or purchase of any gun to watch a video on YouTube of Larry Vickers shooting an AK 107. My God! Ive never seen an assault rifle with very little recoil like that. The way they designed it is as the bolt carrier comes back towards you to the rear, a gas piston with a reciprocating rod goes foward. They’re hooked together by two years or cogs which essentially kills recoil or has very minimal recoil. This is coming from what Larry explained in the video. Anyways, watch the video because that AK 107 is a beast! I would love to see a similar design to the AK 107 in a SMG to reduce recoil like it.