Look in any firearm magazine and you’ll see either advertisements or articles informing you that a certain military unit or police agency uses certain firearms or gear. There are two messages here – first, if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for you; second, they are way better than you, so their decision making processes are infallible and you’d be an idiot to pick anything else.
The truth is that my needs are not the same as, say, DEVGRU’s needs. I don’t live on an oil platform, so my home defense AR doesn’t have a 10.5″ barrel. Similarly, I may not need boots that are perfect for OTB. Therefore, just because SEALs are using some product is not justification enough for me to rush out and buy it.
Furthermore, just because something is purchased by a certain branch or unit doesn’t mean that it actually gets used. The AIs in NSW armories, for example, are thought of as too heavy for the performance they offer and often sit unused (at least, this is what reliable sources tell me). Even in the regular USMC unit I was a part of, plenty of gear went unused or was deemed unsuitable for the tasks at hand. The reasons for this could vary from “The XO likes Gear 1 more than Gear 2” to “Everyone who goes outside the wire agrees that thing is stupid and should never have gotten an NSN.”
That brings me to my next point – the selection process for one agency might be outstanding, but completely screwed up at another. Pistol manufacturers are thrilled to announce when the Maine State Police or the Omaha Police Department switch to their product, but I have no way of knowing whether those departments have a solid testing program and squared away individuals making decisions or not. There have been plenty of bad pistol purchases on behalf of police departments, such as the Indiana State Police’s (epileptic, not legal) Glock seizures and any department that has ever bought a Kimber. The M9 handgun trials were beyond insanely terribly horribly stupid, even though the Beretta is a great pistol and the “first loser” in that trial, the Sig, is also a very good handgun.
All this said, some products are never bought by anything but the most idiotic agencies because they really do suck. And there are some solid indicators when a wide variety of agencies adopt a platform. But these should never be the only or even the primary factor in your personal decision making process. I base my purchases on my real world needs, and I advise you to do the same.
All in the name of Mr. Dollar I suppose.
One of the reasons I like living in the Netherlands so much: if a manufacturer says a product is revolutionary it actually has to have revolutionized something. If it doesn’t it’s considered ‘dwaling’, (but I take it you know) deliberate delusion or something to that effect, and thus is illegal.
“Dwaling” eh? I had to look that up, but that’s the kind of advertising rules I could get behind. I’m sick of companies telling me they’re the best in the business with their ads when I know and can prove otherwise.
In regards to Andrew’s point: You’re right of course. But the vast majority of people are in love with the idea that you can be “rocking the same kit as delta” or whatever other unit they’ve chosen to fetishize. Advertising is still deeply entrenched around the idea that the important thing to sell is “How a product makes you feel,” not what the product actually does. Emotional wants are a much stronger magnet when it comes to separating cash from the wallet.
I lend it some weight, but it also depends on the department. I personally think DEVGRU uses sigs because I use sigs 😉
Mike
Similarly, it’s amusing to me that many companies seem to try marketing their products to the military, when the vast majority of those in the military don’t get to actually pick their own weapons, or even any of their own gear. The only thing your magpul shit would actually be good for is getting bitched at when some SNCO sees you with it.
That’s….not really true. I’m active duty in the US military and I’ve always had pretty much whatever I felt like having on my weapon; I’m also not anything special-plain vanilla 11B here.
I have a Zonda! So when do I pick you up? (A Zonda articulated Table Lamp, made in China, of course…)
These are not the Zondas I was looking for.
hahaha.
I believe there was a little more to the Kimber story.
Department lets retiring cops buy their pistol, also when they replace pistols they let the cops buy them cheap.
Guy in charge of procurement is about to retire, had dept. switch to custom Kimbers. Has them replaced right before he leaves and sets the sell price to $1 dollar.
Or at least, those were the facts said, last I heard.
I carry a Hi-Point, it’s what DEVGRU is switching to after sequestration goes into effect.
That’s their dirty little secret.
Hi-points are really popular!
I have an evidence locker full of them. Lol
BRILLIANT… Needs to be read/heard/shared.
I get more students in classes with bad gear who bought it because some Cool-T-Shirt-Team uses it than any other reason. I’ve trained many cool-t-shirt-teams and several members hate the gear they are issued and have problems with it just like everyone else.
-RJP
Agreed. I won’t say I’m not a sucker for it sometimes though. I don’t foresee myself getting that monster sized HK MK23 anytime in the next 100 years though. In some cases I do like said firearm for the historical value it holds. Sig P6 and HK PSP are heavier than modern single stack 9mms but they are iconic examples of German engineering. I’ll admit I think it’s cool that they were old German police guns. I would compare them to the American 1911 and the history that holds. There is something to be said for a firearm when it could potentially be on display in a museum and yet many opt to use it over a more modern design/version. Makes you wonder if 1911s were invented today, would people think that they are as cool and functional? There is something about the 1911 that embodies America or at least the America of old.
Usually when a state-run group of armed forces (police depts, state or federal army, etc etc) adopts a specific equipment is never just because its the best. There is a lot of politics, budgeting and sadly incompetence between choosing one item instead of another.
Often, even items that are specifically designed for the army are inferior to consumer items (I’m not thinking about big weapon systems of course). That’s the reason why most of the special forces, that usually have more discretion in choosing the equipment, go for off-the-shelf products. In that case there is no official adoption to brag about, of course.
Can’t wait till I get my Red Jacket AR outta layaway at Academy!
Shut your face, you sheep! If the AF has nukes, by God I’m going to have one! Tier wuN 4 Lyfe!
When I purchased my 1st handgun, the primary influence was budgetary. Hence, I became the owner of a Hi-Point .45, which also can double as a boat anchor on lightly windy days. Something IS better than nothing, if even to have something heavy to throw in self defense. Joking aside, I have no complaints as far as it being a functional weapon. That said, I have found it to be unpractical as a carry gun, as it is big & heavy. It also requires fine motor skills to defeat safety mechanisms(two on this one) which is a problem under severe stress. Magazine capacity is also an issue.
The point is, as a civilian, I can be objective in purchasing a firearm, whereas, recipients of decisions handed down from bureaucratic agencies have no choice, as a majority. Look at what is being used in the training world, how it stacks up, and be objective. Try to ‘shoot holes’ in the absolutes and the accepted theories. If you are choosing a personal defensive firearm or gear to that effect, it will require a bit more due diligence than mimicking tacti-cool poster boys and or administered dictates, quite possibly decided on not much more than budgetary priorities. Maybe it is the best gear for you. Study it….Your life may depend on it.
Why don’t these people drive Crown Vics and listen to Motorola radios?
I know a guy who does.
I meant other than full-on holster sniffers.
Let’s be honest here, a lot of our issue gear sucks/sucked huge balls and we all spend/spent quite a bit of our measly pay on shit that well, works. Every time I see something branded “as used by unit X” I tend to shy away. Let’s just say the Dead Bird never had to advertise that fact about their knee pads…
In the photo: What brand barbwire do you guys use? Do they sell it to civilians?
This article is very true I am in infantry squad leader in the Army and the gear we get is usually ordered by the xo usually with little input from us senior NCO’s. We will create a wish list of what we want or need, but when the order comes in it is usually crappy weapon accessories like the grip pod or other useless tacticool gear.
SSG Syndergaard
The grip pod. I’m so glad you mentioned that, haha.
It’s a sucky VFG and a sucky bipod!
but it looks very cool on a T-Shirt!
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who said it was used as a VFG or a bipod?
The soldiers I served with found the grip pod to be very good at keeping your weapon out of the dirt. That is the reason we used it and loved it. Lay in the prone for an hour or so. Get asked to unload the unit’s duffle bags. Have to perform vehicle maintenance, clean the TOC, sort mail, or replace sand bags around the 1SG’s sidewalk. You will be happy to have a grip pod.
Soldiers may not use equipment for the intended purpose, but that does not mean it is not a handy peice of equipment. And this is from a soldier that is old enough to have washed his face and parts in a steel pot before the first kevlar helmets arrived.
So, basically, nothing to do with actually using the rifle/carbine to kill people. “Keep it out of the dirt?” WTF?
Yeah, that’s a totally outstanding way for the military to spend tens of millions of dollars.
Alternately, your soldiers could learn to stack rifles properly.
In every industry there are Michael Jordans who by endorsing a product or brand can increase sales significantly. In the firearm industry we see Chris Costa, Larry Vickers, Travis Haley, and Elite groups of the military like Navy Seals and Army Special Forces.
These guys can sell product because they carry credibility as they’ve been there and done that so to speak. Or maybe they are just the hot thing at the moment like Hansel in Zoolander. No disrespect meant to anyone with that comment. I simply mean some spokespeople are very popular for a short time and then fade away eventually.
People buy products they endorse for the same reason kids would buy Nike Air Jordans and Reebok Pumps when I was a kid.
“It will make me a better player/shooter/knitter if I’m using the same tools the pros use.”
Its like if you don’t have a cool well known military spokesperson, you can’t be taken seriously as a firearm or firearm related company. You need some sort of ex-SF guy to say you have good kit. Having these endorsements makes civilians feel like they are getting a piece of what the military actually uses and in turn a superior product to what civilians normally have access to. This is the mindset.
Take an AR-15 for example. You could get a Del-Ton, Rock River, BCM, or LaRue. Everyone of these has something on their website citing military or law enforcement. You could get the RRA Govt which is the “civilian version of the renowned RRA DEA Carbine!”
At the end of the day, I value the information that Andrew at Vuurwapenblog shares because it’s not tainted by endorsement money. I realize product endorsement is going to happen and I’m not against it. My point is it’s good to have some resources like this blog to find mostly objective research and information. I say “mostly” simply because Andrew occasionally shares his opinion which I also enjoy.
Unless you have a Zonda , ha !
Keep up the good work good sir !!!
Good post Andrew, as usual. However I would like to know what that thingy in your right hand is. Very often the primary factor in my personal decision making process is: how big is the hole in the end of the muzzle (or does it make me giggle like a fool when I pull the trigger)?
Looks like a tear gas launcher. I don’t know what it’s called, but Hollywood thinks it’s a grenade launcher.
It is an old m32. It is a six shot 40mm grenade launcher. The current issue m32a1 is a little shorter with better guts. Manufactured in the GREAT STATE OF ARIZONA by Milkor USA.
manufactured? sure? i think its just assembled there. manufactured in south africa where its also designed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_mgl
It’s a grenade launcher – the M32 MGL as Mike stated.
I immediately thought of the Hk416 when I read this. I know I for one won’t be running to my local shop anytime soon for a $3,000 MR556.
Yeah, just trust gun magazine writers and internet bloggers they are the real experts. No need to spend money on what the pros use.
Why buy an H&K P30 when hi-point works just fine. Lol.
Sorry but some people just want quality stuff. Not to say that Police depts. and military units dont make mistakes in procuring equipment but its not very common. They have the money to test this stuff chances are you dont.
As usual, the point of the article sails way over your head, due in no small part to your failure to fully read and comprehend it.
Aren’t you the same guy who said the 1911 is obsolete? I suspect the Marines, “have the money to test this stuff chances are you dont.” “Lol.”
Interesting article you linked to on that department in Raleigh who purchased those Kimbers. I’ve never been in the police or military, so it’s very strange for me to think of not having a choice when it comes to the gear or weapon you carry.
> … a certain military unit or police agency uses certain firearms or gear.
Chauchat, Nambu, Ross
all officially adopted, and those are just the first three that come to mind.
I’m only prompted to post this because I recently saw a Ross in a local gun shop, with no special warning tags on it. Based on some things the shop owner has said over time, I’m actually wondering if he knows what kind of hazard that thing represents.
Zonda. Nice. I’d whore out for a Nissan GT-R.
Well put Andrew. I am a former Marine and current LAPD Officer. Been on the job for 15 years and the LAPD has had their head in their ass, with respect to R&D and authorizing equipment for a long time. So I couldn’t agree more with your column.
“…the LAPD has had their head in their ass, with respect to R&D and authorizing equipment for a long time.”
Worse, think of all the smaller departments in CA without the budget to do independent testing that piggyback off LAPD’s dept. purchasing decisions. 😮
Great point Tam….
Good read as usual Andrew and surprisingly valid points raised here. To my surprise this “celebrity marketing” is not only limited to civilian users spending their own buck – I too often meet with professional users going after “who uses this?” crap. It’s all fine if you’re using that information as a reference or a source of eventual user-feedback, but it should never replace well researched needs analyzis, realistic field testing to prove actual performance and claimed capabilities of the product.
For further proof of this, look at the Glock pistols in use by NYPD. Sure, the dept. is huge, but that doesn’t stop them from handicapping their officers with an unnecessarily heavy trigger. As another example, the local PD out here used to issue Ruger P-series pistols. Yuck. Take a look at CounterSniper Military Optical Gunsights Corp. (countersniperoptics.com) they claim to be used by special forces, etc. but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that 1) They’re full of it and 2) They suck. People need to work on being better informed as consumers. Thanks for the excellent post Andrew.
Word from a dinosaur here– as an example, I recall the ’80’s, shooting a modified form of PPC that require a duty-type weapon, but was lax if you didn’t mind your score not being in the books. So this wheelgunner took his tried and true 586 with a few hundred thousand rounds thru it against the mega-blasters with overloaded and ported .38 Supers, 5-6 magazines, all the stuff they’d read they HAD to have if they wanted to win at anything. They’d show up for practice, mainly. So $2500 worth of gear and ear-splitting plug-and muff ammo to poke holes in paper at 25 yards.. except they didn’t. You can’t buy your game. Whether it’s Colt, Smith, Sig,HighPoint,Glock,etc. etc. it’s hands on, week after week practice. That’s how an individual finds is/her gun to count on. As for departments and milspec, one has to make do with what’s there, but make damn sure it works. If that means spending your own time/money, hey, I do. Military– those in the hotspots know what to do, follow their lead, and know that weapon inside and out blindfolded; in other words, make the best of what you can, and if you can add/subtract things ad lib to suit, go for it. That’s more than 2 cents worth, so I’ll hush.
A side note: I have an active-duty line-of-fire son that curses milspec ammo for his M4. He keeps plenty of lube and isn’t afraid of the forward assist. He’s in my prayers as we speak.