This email was sent to the contact address on the Colorado Gun Sales website on 3/21/12; no response has been received.
To whom it may concern,
I recently purchased one of your M10 rifles in 5.45 from AIM Surplus. It arrived on Monday evening and I am now, as of Wednesday afternoon, shipping it back to AIM for a refund. I wish to inform you of some issues I saw with the rifle so that you may improve future production runs. I do not expect any action on your part.
– The very first thing I noticed, out of the box, was that the screw attaching the folding stock to the receiver was too long, preventing the stock from folding.
– The next thing I noticed was that the upper and lower handguard had been forced into place with what could only have been a tool such as a hammer (or perhaps superhuman strength). The handguard retaining cap had been bent/damaged at the rear as a result of this. Also, the screws attaching the upper handguard to the lower handguard were crossthreaded at a relatively extreme angle.
– The trunnion appeared to have had some material machined/ground away – for some unknown reason – at the rear on the right side.
– The magazine well had apparently been opened up to a degree that did not allow the use of some surplus Bulgarian magazines. Of the magazines that did fit, the pressure of the magwell on the sides of the magazines caused slow feeding, which resulted in bolt over base malfunctions with Russian surplus 5.45 ammunition.
– Projectile impacts past 10 yards resulted in oblong holes on paper.
Regards
Andrew Tuohy
Keyholing? Ouch! I I was already starting to think that when I “eventually” get an AK I’ll just have to get a Saiga and quality accessories to upgrade it into a worthwhile gun (tech sites, ultimak rail, ace stock, etc). I guess that just reinforces the fact.
No offense to AK fans out there, but I just keep coming back to the opinion that AK’s are typically made for monkeys by monkeys. A disposable gun for disposable troops. I guess the Galils and Valmets are pretty nice, but I’d rather carry a battle rifle than a milled receiver; At least with a battle rifle I’d have a reason for the extra weight. I guess it’s too bad the M76’s are no longer in production.
I had the same experience with the M10, looks like things may be getting worse, not better over at M+M.
In regards to Spencer’s comment above, get an Arsenal and you wont have any issues. If you keep buying cheap then that’s what you are going to get – “made for monkeys by monkeys”. Seems like the AK landscape has been a race to the bottom. I think its time to respect the rifle for what it is and get ones that are of the same quality level as a new manufactured rifle you would buy from any US gun maker.
Obviously you have not seen an AK built by Chris Butler(AK-USA), Krebs, InRange, or any other quality builder. Built by monkeys for monkeys?Nonsense. Just because that particular outfit is incompetent does not mean all rifles are like that. As to being disposable, all infantry rifles are pretty much disposable to the militaryas their cost is infinitesimal in the larger scheme of things. The AK is what it is, a very practical rifle that is designed to work in the harshest conditions and to be used by soldiers with little training. It was never meant to be an AR, nor was it meant to be a sniper rifle. It was meant to provide ample firepower out to 300 meters.
I’ve looked into a number of AKs (mainly 74s) over the past few months. The Krebs run in the $1200-2000 range on average. Chris Butler’s start around $925. Both seem to add value especially to fit and finish of the AK platform, as well as trigger work. The Arsenal brand is the best looking production guns I’ve come across and they start around $800+/-. Whether or not the custom guns are worth the extra money you pay is up to the individual. However, I have found in the past the marginal added cost of purchasing a quality firearm is not that great in the long run. Ammo costs quickly over shadow the cost of the firearm in short order, for me anyway.
So what is the source of the “keyholing” phenomenon? I have yet to observe it firsthand, though I’ve used a CAI Polish Tantal, a Smith and Wesson M&P 15R, a Mode 1 Sales 20 inch upper, and two different Spike’s Tactical 5.45 uppers. All fired 5.45x39mm and I have not observed any oblong holes in over 5k rounds.
key holes happen when the bullet is not stable when it impacts the target…..think football wobbles, or duck pass.
I am sure there are more reasons for this happening, but it is normally a result of one or more of these:
-shot out bbl, which is most likely what is the case with this rifle that was most likely made from various imported parts kits
-extreme long range, once bullets reach a certain velocity (varies based on bullet) at long range the bullets can become unstable or start to go nose down and will make a “key hole” or less than round hole.
-wrong bullet weight to bbl twist combination can result in a failure to stabilize the bullet (basically the same thing that happens when a bbl is shot out)
As for this rifle, sounds like a someone ordered parts to their garage, sat down with google and a beer and started making guns…..”hammer to fit, paint to match”
Century Arms was infamous for this a few years ago. They supposedly fixed that issue…or…the guy in charge of barrels went on extended vacation and just recently showed back up for work. lol I’ve read/hear the key holing was due to the barrel maker “accidentally” using 5.56 barrel blanks. Erm…go figure.
So, if I am reading this correctly and get the underlying meaning…. you were not happy with the product?
Your perception is correct, sir.
SOUNDS LIKE A TYPICAL RED JACKET AK
You almost made me spew my coffee!
Sons of Guns = Sons of Dumb.
Regrettable experience. Any manufacturer should have enough quality control to prevent products like you mentioned from leaving their facilities.
Year or so ago I got the AK bug. I really wanted the gun more to learn about the operating system and function of the gun than anything else. Picked up a WASR 10/63 couple months back with none of the problems mostly associated with the gun. So far seems like an ok gun. The safety for me has been a little hard get comfortable with, but other than that it’s ok. Accuracy seems better than most folks suggested and continues to improve as I get more comfortable with the gun. I think I would have been happier with a 5.45×39 in a tactical style firearm and I’m currently looking at options, but not the M10 after your experience.
Andrew I know you normally recommend sticking with one platform (ie AR or AK) so what sparked your interest in an AK?
Needed an AK for some testing and other stuff. Putting that off now.
Krebs AK’s, still an AK, and yes it is at AR price, but the nicer ones that i have seen…..bulg AK’s have been good to me as well.
You can have these worked on by somebody who knows what they are doing, but by then you will have $ into it. Sounds like the US made barrels are still an issue.
Gunplumber over at Arizona Response Systems builds a hell of an AK but again $$$.
Wow, looks like they’re trying to give Century a run for their money for makers of the shoddiest AK’s (I have a Century btw, so don’t pour out your haterade yet).
“By monkeys for monkeys”… I haven’t laughed so hard in quite a while as when I read that comment. Andrew, I keep looking at their website waiting for the “out of stock” to change to “1 left”. Who knows? You may have made some monkey’s day!
Why do gun manufacturers feel that it is ok to sell their customers substandard products? If Chevy won’t sell you a car with a door that has been hammered into oblivion, why should a gun manufacturer sell you an AK in the same condition.
Because most people that buy guns don’t shoot them at all or very much. People that actually use the stuff they purchase are the minority.
I agree 100%.
I approve of this message
Another satisfied customer!
As far as I’m concerned, there are three good AKMs on the US market:
1) A Saiga you buy as a sporter and convert yourself.
2) An SGL-21 or 31, which is a Saiga converted by Arsenal.
3) A Romanian WASR, if price is crucial and you can accept caveman levels of finish.
Sure, there are better yet AKMs from some custom shops, but once you are past $700-800 I really don’t see the point in buying an AK vs. a quality AR or some other modern designs (SCAR, for example). The above models come off of military production lines and will be durable and reliable (basically 100% of the time for the Saigas, maybe 95-99% of the time for the WASR).
I had a Saiga 308 that I “converted” – it was a decent rifle. Same for my SGL20, excellent rifle. I haven’t had good luck at the other end of the spectrum, though I’ve heard they can be decent. I’d want a non-US barrel, though.
I was in a military unit that acquired a shipment of brand new AKMS rifles from Romania in the 1980s. We received several hundred of the rifles IIRC and shipments went to other SOF units as well. About 1 in 10 had a serious enough issue that it either wouldn’t shoot or wasn’t safe to shoot (after the first couple kB!’s we got some headspace gages. Yeah, military factors in the Warsaw Pact did ship guns that weren’t headspaced properly). I didn’t shoot them all but the ones I did had typical AK accuracy, maybe 4 MOA. They were beautifully finished with a classic rust blue process and some kind of varnish on the laminated forends. The pistol grips were plastic, and the stocks all underfolders. The bayonets seemed to have better materials and QC than the guns.
We were not impressed, but had a mission requirement for 7.62x39mm weapons, preferably AKs.
Then came the first field exercise, with teams on the ground for weeks in the wet European spring. We discovered that one rainstorm and the thing turned orange with rust, and that pretty varnish flaked off by endex. Our beautiful new AKs were looking war weary. But they worked (the deaders having been culled).
Kind of like solid-state electronic gear, an AK is either junk instantly out of the box, or will run like the Rolex quality it isn’t despite all kinds of abuse.
As far as keyholing — round wasn’t stabilized because bore was too large, rifling too far gone,or rifling too slow to stabilize the round. The original AR-15/M16 displayed keyholing at extreme low temps in acceptance testing by the military, the problem was remedied by increasing the pitch of the rifling from 1:14 to 1:12. Later they went to the US version of the SS109 bullet for greater penetration at long range, and had to up the rifling to 1:7 to maintain that stability down to extreme low temperature. That’s what enables the firing of quite heavy (i.e. Black Hills 77 grain) bullets at ambient temps. That didn’t get adopted because it isn’t stabilized to minus forty F. And most-of-the-world ambient temps, M855 is stable in 1:9 but it will keyhole (well, actually 856 tracer will) at minus forty.
The extreme ranges of milspec are set by the extreme ranges of the world’s climate. While it may seem like overkill, in fact wars tend to get fought in pretty crummy places. (If the places don’t start off crummy, air and artillery can crummy anything up real quick. Look at the difference between northern France in peace and in 1917).
I do suspect that some of the monkeys are running a 5.45 chambering reamer into a 5.56 blank and calling it a day. Add that to the fact that 5.45 ammo is all over the place on dimensions (mic it yourself). Would have been interesting if you’d slugged the barrel, but I imagine all you wanted was to get that eight pounds of fail out of your house and back to the dealer/manufactonkey.
SGL-31/31 rifles are a bit more than a converted Saiga, at least not in the manner you describe. The receivers come with the bullet guided riveted in place, as it is with military AKs. Arsenal only assembles the rifles with the correct number of US parts (handguards, grip, muzzle brake, ect) to make them compliant.
In your “Choosing the Right AR-15 for You” video you were holding, what appeared to be, a home built AK. Have you considered using a home built AK for the testing you have in mind?
Also, the placement of the photo gave me a chuckle. I’m not entirely sure if it was your intention, but I saw it as a subtle joke.
I am a 5.45 fan. I appreciate the information you posted in your letter, you have saved me the trouble of trying one of these out myself. I’ll stick with my SGL-31 AK-74s and S&W/Spikes ar-15s.
I got a Polish Tantal in 2008. Century will not deal with you. The gun store told me to send it back to Century with an RMI number. I never got any money back from anyone. I would have liked to have gotten the wholesale price back. But nothing. I was too busy in my life to really deal with it so I just ate the loss and moved along.