In my experience, most people who are looking to buy AR-15s do so because they want something that looks like what the military uses. Most of these people then buy 14.5″ or 16″ M4 type rifles, regardless of what they actually need or have a use for.
I have a variety of ARs, and several have 20″ barrels and collapsible stocks. They’re great shooters and would fit the needs of a lot of civilian shooters (uh-oh, I said it) much better than an M4.
But they don’t look as cool, or like what SF guys on TV carry, so they’re probably never going to be very popular.
(By the way, I’m referring to James Fenimore Cooper’s character Natty Bumppo in Last of the Mohicans with the title of this post).
Do you seriously expect that your average reader is mostly concerned with looking cool at the range?
While in your situation, where you would mostly be concerned with long-distance shooting, I think I’d much prefer a 20″ rifle to a 14.5/16″ barreled carbine, my carbine sits at home and isn’t expected to shoot beyond the length of my house: about 15 yards. It also has a secondary role as a patrol carbine since I do live in the mountains; normally shots beyond 300 yards would not be expected from it, but shoot it semi-regularly at 500 yards and it performs perfectly adequately at that range, no doubt partially thanks to the ACOG mounted atop it. As a house gun, though, the shorter length is much preferred compared to a rifle.
Clearly the M4 Carbine has a lot of tacticool appeal, but you make it sound as if the only reason to own one is to look cool.
Nathaniel, absolutely not. I’m consistently impressed with the quality of the comments I see here, not only in terms of technical knowledge, but grammar, spelling, and general courtesy to others.
However, I do have two separate audiences here: those that only watch my Youtube videos, and those that check the blog. While the majority of the Youtube comments are in line with those on the blog, some folks tend to slide a little to the other end of the scale, whatever that may be.
I did have a longer explanation of what I thought the M4 type was good for, home defense etc, but I was getting off track and decided to cut it out. I thought the mention of room clearing and vehicle work that I left in was sufficient. I apologize if this wasn’t entirely clear; I wasn’t thrilled with the quality of this video compared to others that I have put out in the past. I feel rusty.
Oh, fair enough, I hadn’t considered your YT-only audience. I didn’t think you were calling us maroons, it just sounded like it.
I am a CMP shooter, i agree with you a 18 to 20 inch barrel is better for distance shots. While i see a ton of “cool” ar’s at the range i find it funny while i am holding the 9 ring @ 600m the guys with 14.5 and 16’s are having trouble getting there unless they have a “nice” 1-7 stainless barrels and ammo to match. The last 3-gun match i was @ most guys are moving from their short carbines to 18″ barrels due to the fact they want that extra reach….
Sometimes I go to 600 yard matches, I shoot M4s just to be different. My last time out I shot a 191-4X (out of 200-20X) with a 16″ midlength and an ACOG.
The biggest thing for me regarding short barrels and distance shooting is wind. I really seem to have a much easier time with a slight wind when I’m shooting a 20″ upper. This is another thing I was going to leave in the video, but cut out due to time and what I thought was getting off track.
Please do a video on the difference wind has on 16″ vs. 20″ barrels.
People qual just as easily on the KD course with the M4 as they do with the M16 (for us that goes out to 550 yards) so range isn’t a huge factor. I think the lighter weight and general handiness of the shorter barrel more than makes up for not being able to shoot as far, anyway.
Er, 500 yards. Not 550.
A 20″ AR is the same basic length as an 18″ shotgun.
Since so many folks consider an 18″ shotgun to be the perfect room clearing weapon, I’ve always been a bit mystified about the unsuitability of the 20″ AR for inside use, especially when equipped with a collapsible stock.
It’s not unsuitable, it’s just that if you never expect to shoot beyond 15, 50, 100 or 300 yards, that extra 4″ of barrel are just weighing the front-end of your rifle down. With quality ammo, the difference at that distance isn’t that great.
Like, at 300 yards, my chosen load, the 75gr Hornady TAP FPD is producing about 670 ft-lbs from a 20″ rifle. From a 16″ carbine, it’s producing about 615 ft-lbs. This just isn’t a big enough difference to me to be worth the extra 4″, unless I expected to have to push beyond that significantly.
I prefer 20″ ARs, and the only 16″ I own is a Professional Ordinance Carbon-15 that I took for a song. When I was in the service, I had to carry my A2 everywhere I went whenever we were in the field, and I never thought it was awkward in length, or ungainly in balance, and on the range, I always found the accuracy to be wonderful. I joined the Corps hating the AR, and left with a very strong respect for it, including using it in combat.
20″ Barrels give more velocity, and therefore have better accuracy (Ballistic Coefficients and sight radius), better lethality (more energy), less muzzle blast/muzzle flash (lower muzzle pressure), and better reliability (lower port pressure). I’m 6’2″, so 40″ OAL is not a problem for me, but I observed how it was sometimes a problem for shorter shooters. Most of my HD shotguns aren’t much shorter than a full-sized AR, and truth be told, I prefer a scattergun for close encounters.
My full size AR wears a 20″ A1 “Pencil Barrel” which is wonderfully lightweight, and the total weight with the A2 upper and that barrel is only 6.9 lbs unloaded (with Sling and mag). Not as light as my Carbon-15 (nothing is!) but I bought it as a primary for SHTF scenarios. I used to have a 16″ FAL, but that was 40″ OAL, heavy, expensive to use, and loud.
Leatherstocking would say, “I live
by the rifle, a we’pon at which I will not turn my back on any
man of my years, atween the Hudson and the St. Lawrence. I never
offer a skin that has not a hole in its head besides them which
natur’ made to see with or to breathe through.”
I think he’d approve of the AR-15.
My first AR was a Colt SP1 (sans fwd assist) I nabbed off a co-worker. I recall it being particularly light and naturally pointable. I sold it so I could have a more compact M4 with all the do-dads such as the ACOG. I suspect my old SP1 weighs less and handles better in comparison now.
Outside of finding bargains or being budget restricted, I find >16″ AR15s to be unwieldy for the minimal benefits of its longer barrel.
The largest gain in velocity happens when going from SBR lengths to 16″. Beyond that, there is a diminishing return of only 25-30 fps per inch. When using open sights, the longer sight radius of 18″/20″ barrel contributes to its accuracy more than the negligible velocity gain or stability offered by the extra 2-4″. I’ve easily taken down 300m pop-ups while standing and kneeling during my Army marksmanship qualification with my M4, open sights. An optic will neutralize any benefits of sight radius.
US Army manuals establish effective point target range for an M4 (14.5″) to be 500m and majority of real world engagements happened under 100m. Sure you could work an 18″ shotgun within your home for self-defense, but how much better can you maneuver if the shotgun had a 16″ barrel and a collapsing stock?
With a mid-length gas system and heavy buffer, a 16″ AR will shoot just as soft and as reliable as the longer barreled ARs. I’ve even seen RECCE builds where an FSB was installed beyond a lo-pro gas block to achieve a full rifle’s sight base.
Muzzle blast is easily mitigated with a purpose designed muzzle device like AAC Blackout, BattleComp, Surefire, etc etc.
Finally, budget permitting, a 14.5″/16″ AR can be build lighter than a full length AR.
I have to disagree…
The added velocity contributes to the ability to deal with wind at extended distances.
Midlength ARs will not be as soft shooting as rifle gas ARs. No ifs, ands, or buts. You can get close, but the rifle gas system is where it’s at for recoil control.
All of the brakes you mentioned increase muzzle blast, they don’t decrease it. The Blackout is a flash hider. And it doesn’t change the fact that the same device will be more tame on a longer barrel.
I think that if it were not for legal restrictions, civilian ownership of ARs (outside 14.5″ clones) would be primarily 10.5-12.5″ and 18-20″. The 14.5+pin/weld and 16″ ARs have been foisted upon us by the NFA and we have constructed in our minds reasons why they are “better”. For example, the 16″ is only slightly more maneuverable than an 18-20″ in a vehicle, while the 10.5-12.5″ is worlds more maneuverable in that same vehicle, but we have convinced ourselves that 16″ ARs are maneuverable enough for practically anything we need them to do.
This is going down the dreaded “if you could have only one rifle” line of thought, but isn’t a 16″ mid length a good compromise between the 10.5-12.5″ and the 18-20″?
If I am going to “need” to use a rifle, I am only going to be able to carry and use one at a time…so it really comes down to personal needs and wants. I personally am not going to be clearing rooms, or getting in and out of vehicles with it on a daily basis. For my home defense use and range fun, the 20″ makes sense to me.
And in the end it comes down to availability. Supply and demand has proven that short rifles are what is demanded, so that is what is available. I want to get a Spikes, but they don’t make a 20″ (as far as I know), so it looks like the 16″ mid is in my future.
It is a decent compromise, but if I could only have one ideal AR (oops), it’d be something I don’t even have right now: a 12.5. I’d probably stick with 5.56 for cost/availability, but ideally it would be either 6.8 or, even better, 300 Blackout.
Frankly, though, I’d be well served by any AR and could “make it work” for most things. I often think that if somehow, all of my ARs went missing but one, it really wouldn’t matter which one that was. They all work.
Yes, the added velocity helps with wind at distance, but does that extra 120-140fps the additional 4″ barrel length provides resist wind drift that much? If long distance accuracy and wind drift resistance was the goal, moving to a larger cartridge would be better.
In a similar vein, yes, a full length rifle gas system will have a softer recoil compared to a mid-length, but just how significant of a difference is it when all other configuration is the same?
I made a mistake of writing muzzle “blast” instead of “flash”, which I was intending. The muzzle devices I listed are to decrease the flash signature rather than act as brakes.
I hope my reply doesn’t come off as argumentative or A-hole-ish. I completely agree that SBR length ARs would better serve a wider range of our civilian needs, were it not for the NFA forcing layers of cost and red tape. But, if all price and configuration were the same with the exception of a 16″ or 18-20″ barrel, I’d always recommend going 16″.
Having humped an M16 for a year prior to being issued one of the first rounds of M4s, those handful of inches made an incredible difference during my time in the Army. And I did not feel underpowered nor less accurate due to the loss of barrel length.
Velocity – yes, which is why all the serious distance shooters use 20″ rifles (or even longer barrels)…I use 14.5-16″ ones for fun. The long OTM stuff does a pretty decent job with light to moderate wind. There aren’t many other AR-magwell calibers that’ll do better, and those that will have other issues.
Recoil – yes, which is why all the serious 3 gunners use rifle gas ARs…I use midlengths for fun.
The Battle Comp increases flash compared to an A2. And the Vortex/Blackout don’t do as good of a job at keeping the muzzle down as an A2. No free lunch and all that…
Not coming across as argumentative, I hope I don’t come across that way either. I totally understand what you mean, I had an M4 for over a year and then when I left PSD was given an M16A4 instead. After I started getting whored out to whatever unit needed a Corpsman, I left it at the armory and figured I would borrow a rifle from a driver if I needed one. The M9 sufficed. But Iraq is a different war than Afghanistan, and while I regularly shoot M4s and the like at 600 yards, I wouldn’t complain about being given a 20″ upper for distance shooting, especially if people were shooting back at me.
Great review!
I bought my first AR as a student in college- I saved the cash I earned while taking an internship and managed piece it together right before the 2008 election. Being a poor student I couldn’t afford a brand-new top of the line rifle(even as recently as 2008 we didn’t have the plethora of quality choices we have today…) so I decided to get a USED 20″A2 Colt instead of a new Del-Ton/DoubleStar/etc. By assembling my own lower and getting the “undesirable” 20″(1/7, 5.56, chrome lined, gov profile) I pieced together what I consider to be a quality rifle for a scant $700. The rifle has of course been totally reliable.
I have adopted an upgrade regiment for it – it now has an A1 stock, which helps, but will be replaced with a Vltor A5 kit soon. That stock combined with a new, larger, grip like a MIAD or BG-17 will fix ~90% of my complaints about the ergonomics. Eventually I will get a 16″ lightweight(or maybe even an SBR) but right now I’m content with my “musket.” For the price I still don’t think I could have gotten anything close in quality.
Great arguments presented. Now 18 or 20 inch variants will be part of my AR portfolio due to your persuasion.
Glad to hear it. The 18″ is an excellent choice as well, since velocity loss compared to 20″ is minimal.
Where did you get your 20″ upper?
I built both of them using FN barrels. I had a BCM 20″ that I parted out a while back. Nobody wanted to buy it, even lightly used and at a significantly reduced price compared to new. I had the same problem with 1/7 Bushmaster 20″ uppers years ago.
If you wanted to buy one new, BCM would be the way to go.
Can a rifle length gas system be run on a 16″ barrel, and how will it affect muzzle velocity? Even on barrels as long as 18″ I rarely see anything longer than a mid-length gas tube.
Also, I’m in agreement with you on the NFA – without the SBR rules, I would probably prefer a barrel around 12 inches.
Attila, there are some 16″ rifle length systems out there, but the gas ports have to be opened way up, and they are overall not as reliable as other systems. It would be better to go 17″ and have a little extra insurance. I have had both midlength and rifle length 18″ barrels. I think I prefer the rifle system for that barrel length.
I’m somewhat mystified by the comments regarding the unwieldiness of 20″ ARs. At 5’10”, I’ve never found the 20″ to compromise handling characteristics in tight spaces over a 16″. After all, in a sufficiently restricted space, ANY long gun can be unwieldy. This condition can be mitigated somewhat by tucking the buttstock under the upper arm rather than shouldering the gun. At house-clearing distances, hit probability is not greatly affected by this method.
Beaumont, there’s a pretty significant difference. And having to tuck the stock under or over the shoulder definitely affects how the weapon will shoot and hit.
Well, I imagine that tucking the stock OVER the shoulder would definitely detract from accuracy — I’ve not encountered that particular technique before. As to tucking under, I believe that in the majority of homes, the typical distances are not great enough to make a radical difference. for instance, in my house, there is no line-of-sight distance greater than 35 feet. At 35 feet on the range, hits from a tucked position are adequate for the purpose intended. Of course, I prefer to avoid firing 5.56 inside the house unless absolutely necessary.
Even though it is a year later, I am leaving a comment because I agree with this video so much. Personally, I think 20″ barrels look much cooler than 16″ or 14.5″ ones. I enjoy that they’re a little more quiet, too. I am a civilian shooter, and my first (and so far only) AR has a 20″ government profile barrel made by FN. I love it. And even if we assume that I harbor paranoid fantasies of having to use my rifle to fight off waves of invading paratroopers, well, I can’t afford to buy my own M113 to jump in and out of, and I don’t know anyone who has one.
Andrew, here I am late to the game on this thread but I have just watched the video and like the idea.. I am curious as to which buffer/action spring combo you used on the lower to mate with the rifle length upper?? Perhaps you mentioned it in the video and I was “zoned out” at that particular moment….
Generally the vltor a5 but I also use various carbine springs/buffers depending on ammo used.
Thanks for the quick reply! Christmas gift was given a DSA upper with a 1-7 twist and am going to mate it to a retractable stock lower… planning to shoot 69-77 grain 5.56 ammo.. NOT any 223 pressure stuff. Will take a look at the VLTOR A5… would you also recommend checking out a Sprinco action spring along with an H2 buffer?? I am not certain what size the gas port is on that DSA upper….
I’d use the A5 for that.